tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post3323126216996907596..comments2023-05-12T11:27:30.153+01:00Comments on Untrusted, too: Tax havens: A modest proposalMontana Wildhackhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11409705185204787671noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-56097529167087668012009-10-22T04:58:18.773+01:002009-10-22T04:58:18.773+01:00My initial reaction when you posted the article wa...My initial reaction when you posted the article was to suggest that, perhaps, we could find some way of evacuating the poor people out of the Caymans and then bombing the islands (with bankers and politicians still there) into the sea. Then we could say to Switzerland, Liechtenstein, et al., "You're next. But we're not going to bother evacuating anyone next time."Montana Wildhackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11409705185204787671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-28786790489032981822009-10-21T23:12:47.584+01:002009-10-21T23:12:47.584+01:00D'oh - 2nd para - "overpaid tax", as...D'oh - 2nd para - "overpaid tax", as if, should read "overdue tax".<br /><br />Been a long day. Had to get a train at 6am today to meet a Jersey-based accountant who was pleading innocence/ignorance on behalf of his multimillionaire taxhaven-based client who didn't understand the difference between capital and income when it came to paying tax.<br /><br />Satire's dead. Along with shame, honour, decency and morality.HankScorpiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13220200282805558779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-50008189334732261762009-10-21T22:46:30.192+01:002009-10-21T22:46:30.192+01:00@deano - a postscript that takes the edge off the ...@deano - a postscript that takes the edge off the optimistic ending I finished the article with....<br /><br />HMRC are currently running a disclosure opportunity for people sheltering money in tax havens to come forward and declare in return for no penalties and slashing the interest they should otherwise be paying on overpaid tax.<br /><br />The effectiveness of this opportunity has been undermined a little by the fact that, having wrung concessions out of Liechtenstein, ie persuading the bastards that it would be in their interests to join the international community, there is now a parallel "Liechtenstein Disclosure Scheme" under which those who have accounts in Liechtenstein banks don't have to disclose until 2015 or summat like. Google for more info.<br /><br />Anyway, in effect, what it means is that tax-evaders who had stuffed their money in Jersey, the Caymans, the BVI, etc no longer need to meet the deadline of 30 November 2009 if they move their money from their Caymans etc accounts to a bank in Liechtenstein for a good few years yet.<br /><br />And after that, they can move their money to a bank in another jurisdiction which has yet to sign up to OECD laws about tax evasion, money laundering and all the rest.<br /><br />So in effect the iron fist of international revenue authorities has yet again become a velvet mitt stroking the pampered fat arses of rich bastards.<br /><br />I'm told that the OECD tried to play hardball with Liechtenstein on this issue but were basically told that they'd play according to their own rules, ta very much. <br /><br />And the OECD rolled over and said thanks very much for your cooperation.<br /><br />I've suggested before that we should bomb Switzerland. I was only half joking.<br /><br />I'm so outraged at this latest stunt that I would quite happily pay a bit more tax if it meant that our tanks started rolling into Vaduz and shelled the shit out of the cocky antisocial fuckers.<br /><br />Makes ya fucking laugh doesn't it? The IMF and the World Bank get to dictate to sovereign govts that they get no more credit unless they cut public spending in the war on the poor, but poxy little Liechtenstein is impervious to attack when it stands up for the property rights of the rich.HankScorpiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13220200282805558779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-70472785416689903312009-10-21T11:26:36.373+01:002009-10-21T11:26:36.373+01:00From Guardian 21/10/09:
"Banks that have rep...From Guardian 21/10/09:<br /><br />"Banks that have reported hefty losses since the credit crisis have stored up tax credits which mean they do not need to pay tax for some time even after returning to profit. Last year US bank Merrill Lynch admitted it had booked £15bn of sub-prime credit losses through Britain which would allow it to avoid corporation tax in Britain for the next 60 years. RBS has £11bn of tax credits although it has been forced to give these up as the cost of enjoying insurance on its toxic assets from the asset protection scheme."<br /><br />Avoiding corporation tax for 60 years!!deano30https://www.blogger.com/profile/12637249297224887297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-20318242121980589292009-10-18T12:27:05.170+01:002009-10-18T12:27:05.170+01:00Thanks Hank - illuminating piece.Thanks Hank - illuminating piece.Edwin Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05317173893948248954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-91856431778181222162009-10-16T19:48:27.106+01:002009-10-16T19:48:27.106+01:00Come to Montpellier! It's lovely (and I have ...Come to Montpellier! It's lovely (and I have a very good French teacher, Jay) and the wine is very reasonably priced. Beer drinkers might suffer. Anyway. While I am struggling to sort out the 6 (six) forms of NI I am apparently supposed to be paying, while earning a grand total of €3k last year, I see a lot of benefits.<br /><br />And Hank - carousel fraud by definition has to be fraud, surely. Problem is, finding the fraudster - or nicking a possibly conmnected party but not having a cast-iron case to face 'beyond reasonable doubt' rather than 'on balance of probabilities'. The people had up when I wrote that piece looked bang to right to me, but were still only put up before the tribunal, not a judge. Agree that every time a door is closed, some clever little twonk kimmies a window...PhilippaBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091980183380957529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-73017208483721203842009-10-16T16:08:09.735+01:002009-10-16T16:08:09.735+01:00"We could all move to Barcelona and have a UT..."We could all move to Barcelona and have a UT commune."<br /><br />Actually quite tempting. Barcelona is brilliant. We could have big drunken rows every evening followed by cuddly pow wows the next morning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-14269444256676188672009-10-16T00:07:48.112+01:002009-10-16T00:07:48.112+01:00I'll go. We could all move to Barcelona and h...I'll go. We could all move to Barcelona and have a UT commune.Montana Wildhackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11409705185204787671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-72172672949659768132009-10-15T12:26:05.575+01:002009-10-15T12:26:05.575+01:00I fancy France, Germany or Spain myself but im dre...I fancy France, Germany or Spain myself but im dreadful at learning languages and got a lot of friends and family here. If i could get a handful to move with me I'd be off before Xmas without a second thought.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-46401791307835427932009-10-15T00:49:24.415+01:002009-10-15T00:49:24.415+01:00Thanks, Jay. I don't share your cynicism about...Thanks, Jay. I don't share your cynicism about Dave tbh. I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords.<br /><br />Seriously though, you're still young enough to get out of the country. Do it. I'm encouraging my son to do so. And just as soon as I get offered a big redundancy payment, I'll follow my own advice.<br /><br />France, Spain or Italy, I'm thinking. Can't decide between them but they're all at least ten years behind us on the neo-liberal path, and the food and climate are better.HankScorpiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13220200282805558779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-76924736728710730242009-10-14T16:11:06.996+01:002009-10-14T16:11:06.996+01:00Good stuff, Hank, sorry i missed it when posted. L...Good stuff, Hank, sorry i missed it when posted. Like PFI, the libel laws, and just about everything else in this hole though, no sign of a single thing being done about it. Though Dave the "revolutionary" will of course fix these things...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-92174371304804122832009-10-13T20:26:54.772+01:002009-10-13T20:26:54.772+01:00Thanks guys.
Philippa - you're right of cours...Thanks guys.<br /><br />Philippa - you're right of course about the complexity issue. The accountancy trade journals whine on endlessly about the need for tax simplification, knowing full well that the only need for constant revision and complication of the tax code is to close down loopholes they merrily exploit and market for a fortune. <br /><br />HMRC will always be an easy target of course, cos no one likes paying tax, but the public might like to ask themselves why it is that partners in KPMG, PWC etc are on around £750k p.a. Answer: it's because they apply some brilliant minds to constantly finding new ways to cheat the system.<br /><br />This is why the whole avoidance/evasion argument is a nonsense. If a loophole is closed because it's been abused, then treat that abuse as non-compliance and hit the abusive tax firms with big fines.<br /><br />I'll let you write the piece on carousel fraud btw (-; That's another area where the more the tax authorities react to "avoidance", the more the bastards find new ways of getting round new rules!<br /><br />Oh and it's Brockman, by the way. Kenny Brocklestein as was.HankScorpiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13220200282805558779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-15337702661613212802009-10-13T19:05:55.372+01:002009-10-13T19:05:55.372+01:00Great piece! I can bore for britain on this subje...Great piece! I can bore for britain on this subject as well - but that's mainly on 'domestic' avoidance rather than the global picture, so this was really interesting. <br /><br />Just to depress everyone further - the reason your tax affairs, which should, frankly, be very straightforward, are in fact nothing of the sort? Largely down to legislative reactions to avoidance schemes. Bad guys do something moody, but legal, HMRC throw in some barking anti-avoidance legislation, good guys can't fill in an income tax form for £50 external earnings without needing a lawyer. Free market my arse. Anyway.<br /><br />brief anecdote - on the Simpsons, they had a 'news spot' on this, only Kent wots-'is-face referred to 'evadance and avoision'. that lasted about half an hour as the title for my piece on carousel fraud for taxline 2000-something before the publishers asked if I'd like to use something a bit more, erm, 'formal'PhilippaBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091980183380957529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-45192615122761849042009-10-13T18:44:49.316+01:002009-10-13T18:44:49.316+01:00Hey Hank,
Brilliant piece and some of those numbe...Hey Hank,<br /><br />Brilliant piece and some of those numbers are mind boggling. You are right that people should be getting really angry about this. <br /><br />What makes me most angry is places like the Isle of Man - where in effect a low wage worker in Leeds is subsidizing a loud mouth, wankface tele presenter living over there paying fuck all tax but getting NHS healthcare etc.<br /><br />BB, this - 'She's an untalented, self-important, ungrateful cunt.' made my day - so, so true!princesschipchopshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18202815936353393398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-23765214482659333962009-10-13T12:43:04.910+01:002009-10-13T12:43:04.910+01:00Nice one, Hank. Thanks for adding to my grumpiness...Nice one, Hank. Thanks for adding to my grumpiness.thaumaturgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01116351419774991352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-57829138676572862302009-10-12T22:39:40.524+01:002009-10-12T22:39:40.524+01:00Well put sir...Well put sir...kizbothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00860856864342657278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-27775591162965965462009-10-12T18:43:42.272+01:002009-10-12T18:43:42.272+01:00See, this is why the let me use a calculator at wo...See, this is why the let me use a calculator at work. Yep, well spotted, 5% would be about £6Bn so the tax would be 40% of that, ie £2.4Bn.<br /><br />And absolutely right, MF, a fair chunk of that £126Bn will be capital which isn't earning, ie houses, yachts, trophy wives etc. <br /><br />You'd need a proper breakdown of the capital assets to really establish how much these guys are underpaying by, but it seems safe to assume that most of them would have at least half their wealth made up of income-producing assets, such as land, shares, bank accounts etc.<br /><br />Nice links to Prem Sikka's paper, deano. Some cracking examples of transfer pricing there.HankScorpiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13220200282805558779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-31428309795026882242009-10-12T17:30:38.805+01:002009-10-12T17:30:38.805+01:00Yeah, I was wondering about that but I figured the...Yeah, I was wondering about that but I figured the phrase 'invested capital' implied not all of it was invested and some just sat around being lived in, grazed upon, adorning gallery walls, maturing in the wine cellar etc.<br /><br />Although if the return is 1.1 then that implies only 22 billion was actually 'earning' which seems a bit unlikely. That would leave £104 billion to play with so wouldn't they sorta own everything? Although they probably do what with PFI and everything.monkeyfishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117567260726533116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-5435807685870466052009-10-12T11:24:06.020+01:002009-10-12T11:24:06.020+01:00Hank - found the following confusing:
"@MF -...Hank - found the following confusing:<br /><br />"@MF - yeh, but the £126Bn figure is capital, and you don't get taxed on capital. Let's assume that they get a 5% return on their invested capital, which would amount to about £1.1bn, so the tax take should be around £450M."<br /><br />5% on £126Bn = £1.1Bn ?? - Surely at least £6Bn?deano30https://www.blogger.com/profile/12637249297224887297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-61238482452259882962009-10-12T02:17:40.032+01:002009-10-12T02:17:40.032+01:00night allnight alldeano30https://www.blogger.com/profile/12637249297224887297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-68500871013706721352009-10-12T02:14:31.963+01:002009-10-12T02:14:31.963+01:00For friends who don't have time to wade throug...For friends who don't have time to wade through a 59 page paper the following examples from Prem's paper give a flavour of what transfer pricing is all about:<br /><br /><br />" ‘Transfer pricing’<br />is a key mechanism for avoiding taxes. It enables multinational companies, including both British multinationals and those based in<br />Britain, to siphon off profits by deliberately over-pricing imports and under-pricing exports26. Tax authorities in China investigated 9,465 multinationals and found that "Almost 90 per cent of the foreign<br />enterprises …….. use transfer pricing to dodge tax payments".<br /><br /> US examples include paper transactions showing purchase of plastic buckets from the Czech Republic at $972.98 each, fence posts from Canada at $1,853.50 each, a kilo of toilet paper (about four rolls - unused) from China for $4,121.81, a litre of apple juice from Israel for $2,052, a ball point pen from Trinidad for $8,500 and a pair of tweezers from Japan at $4,896 each. <br /><br />The artificially low prices which shuffle profits to other countries include selling a toilet (with bowl and tanks) to Hong Kong for $1.75, prefabricated buildings to Trinidad at $1.20 and bulldozers to Venezuela at $387.83 each. <br /><br />For the years 1998 to 2001, such techniques enabled US companies to avoid an estimated $175 billion in taxes."<br /><br />We all need to use Hanks piece and quote and link to it when we post in opposition to public sector cuts - Are you reading this Polly? <br /><br />We all need to express more anger at tax avoidance/evasion at every relevant posting opportunity.deano30https://www.blogger.com/profile/12637249297224887297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-26536458542438114252009-10-12T01:58:15.415+01:002009-10-12T01:58:15.415+01:00As Prem says:
"Another tactic is to locate c...As Prem says:<br /><br />"Another tactic is to locate corporate offices in tax havens which provide secrecy, little public accountability or public information. <br /><br />The Murdoch empire operates a web of some 800 subsidiaries, many registered in offshore tax havens, such as the Cayman Islands, Bermuda, the Netherlands Antilles and the British Virgin Islands. A trawl through the 101 subsidiaries of Murdoch’s UK holding company, NewsCorp<br />Investments, for an 11-year period shows that it generated profits of some £1.4 billion. At the going British corporation tax rate it should have paid tax of over £350 million, large enough to finance seven new hospitals, or<br />build fifty secondary schools (The Economist, 20 March 1999). <br /><br />In fact, it paid virtually no corporation tax in Britain where it makes its profits from people who pay higher taxes because The Sun, News of the World, The Times and Sky TV aren’t paying their share."deano30https://www.blogger.com/profile/12637249297224887297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-34402276891589966732009-10-12T01:53:56.396+01:002009-10-12T01:53:56.396+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.deano30https://www.blogger.com/profile/12637249297224887297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-36156214444641545792009-10-12T01:52:36.534+01:002009-10-12T01:52:36.534+01:00Hank - after a long search I think the following l...Hank - after a long search I think the following link may be of interest (if you aint seen it already)<br /><br />http://visar.csustan.edu/aaba/TamingtheCorporations.pdf<br /><br />It's a research/discussion paper by Prem Sikka & Austin Mitchell (Grimsby MP)<br /><br />I haven't read it all (59 pages long) - I need some printer ink to print a copy of it. But the first ten or so pages were interesting enuf for me to bookmark it.deano30https://www.blogger.com/profile/12637249297224887297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-927583173512240717.post-71509033275337575822009-10-12T00:56:41.276+01:002009-10-12T00:56:41.276+01:00Good piece Hank - trust you won't object if we...Good piece Hank - trust you won't object if we post links to it from time to time.<br /><br />Good article by Prem that gives some juicy examples of transfer pricing (that I have misplaced) - when I find the reference I'll post it here as a link.deano30https://www.blogger.com/profile/12637249297224887297noreply@blogger.com